Nomadic Narratives: A Deep Dive into the World of Work and Travel, with Rudi Medved

Speaker 1: 0:06

Hello and welcome to the Future is Freelance podcast, the show for entrepreneurs, digital nomads, slow mads, consultants, remote workers, e-residents and everybody living a life without traditional boundaries. We're here for people who defy categorization, people who make a living and a life their own way. Every Freelance Friday, we're bringing you expert tips, inspired stories, insights from the frontiers of freelancing to help you achieve success with your borderless business, whatever success means and looks like to you as you live life on your own terms. Thank you for listening to the Future is Freelance and for being part of the Future of Work Revolution. And today is very special it's the first episode of season four. It's a great pleasure to share with you today an interview I actually carried out earlier this year with Rudy Medved from Slovenia. We always try to find people to talk to for this show who are pushing the boundaries and really advancing the conversation in the areas that we talk about, and Rudy is a great example because he's not only been working and living the location independent lifestyle from the start. He's been studying it too, so reflecting on it from an academic perspective. His recent master's thesis focused on what motivates digital nomadism and work travel, and it led him to an innovative taxonomy of how and why people use remote work to unlock movement and migration and new ways of living and moving around the world. It's absolutely fascinating. That's why I wanted to talk to Rudy about his research, and also he's got some great insights into what the future might hold and how things might continue to develop. So I'm sure you're going to enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So, rudy, welcome to the Future is Freelance. It's great to have you with us.

Speaker 2: 1:49

Hey Maya, thanks so much for the invitation. I was looking forward to this chat.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Yeah, me too. I'm definitely really interested to hear about what you've been working on, but before that, I know that you've recently completed your master's thesis about digital nomadism and how that affects local communities. But before we unpack that, I'd like to know a little bit more about you and your journey leading up to that piece of research and the work you're doing now.

Speaker 2: 2:13

I'm from Slovenia. Actually, I come from a small town in a more rural area in Slovenia and well, my beginnings were kind of in the technology field. So I applied for a high school of computer science. I finished that and I kind of felt, okay, this isn't so much for me, like to be all in in computer science and I kind of felt more inclined to some like more social science or social topics. So I applied for a faculty of tourism, also in Slovenia on the coast, and I finished that in 2019, the bachelor's. Well, after that I also decided, after a two year break as well, to apply to a master's, because I was really trying to get deeper in tourism. I was interested in academia. So that was the reason and I worked in hospitality for all of my student years since I was 19. I worked in hotels. My first job was actually in a nightclub. I was washing the dishes, so that was a cool student job to have. Yeah the glamorous side of clubbing the glamorous side but yeah, in my master's, actually things changed. I got more in contact with my current mentor and with the current team that we do all of the project. He just found it. When I applied for a master's at our university, he founded like a student kind of department, a club for students who want to do more and like give them more opportunities to like immerse themselves in also entrepreneurial skills and innovation. He is specializing in innovation in tourism and well, when I applied for that, things started changing in my head. You know, we got more interested in the startup environment and actually COVID then changed it completely and took my life upside down as everyone's. For me, it was like very positive because just in the beginning of COVID, me and three other friends these friends from our university we co-founded the startup. It was a travel marketplace called Locust from Zero marketplace for experiences and well, after that, for the since 2020, we've been together working on different things in tourism, from helping tourism providers, consulting destinations, to work in academia and helping other students, as I was helped by my mentor. Now we are like making this possible to other students as well at our university to get introduced to the, let's say, more entrepreneurial side of tourism.

Speaker 1: 4:54

Interesting, because academia and entrepreneurialism don't always connect as well as they should do, though, and if you're helping people bridge that gap and actually make something commercial out of what they've learned, that's really fantastic, and I love the idea that you started a travel business in the middle of COVID. That's very positive and optimistic.

Speaker 2: 5:16

Yeah, it was, I'm thinking, the perfect time to, like in any other field as well, to think about how we can, what we can do to start things differently. You know what can be improved, especially tourism, which was, you know, as you know, very much affected by COVID. It was a time when everything was shut down. Like, okay, what can we do if we start from zero and actually, locals from zero was the name of our startup? So, like, how to kind of build local communities from zero, but not just like from zero, as there's nothing there but, you know, respecting the local traditions and everything. How can we like do things with different people, like now with digital nomads and with students, people who want to do more, like how we can impact these communities more. So, yeah, in general, it was positive to think about this other side of things.

Speaker 1: 6:07

Yeah, that's really cool that you use that hiatus of the whole world, and the normal tourism had to pause, and that's a chance to think about how to recreate it better once we could all move again. You've obviously saw another big trend coming down the track at you at that point with the way that digital nomadism was going to explode once everybody had learned to work from home, and they've been locked in those homes for months on end, and then they were going to be free with their laptops. So tell me about your thesis, then. What led you to explore digital nomadism in so much depth?

Speaker 2: 6:43

Yeah, well, first of all, again, an inspiration, for that was my mentor, then he was my professor and now mentor of my thesis and my startup mentor and everything and a friend and everything. So he has been working remotely for the last 10 years, like even before COVID. So he was actually the early adopter of this remote work lifestyle and I've observed this and you know, he was the first inspiration, maybe the first person I've met who has such a lifestyle as a kind of a digital nomad. You know, remote worker because maybe you know, in Slovenia at least, I don't know many digital nomads, so it was a positive influence. Then, you know, because we started our startup during COVID, obviously our team was scattered around Slovenia and then abroad as well. So it was kind of natural to me like this startup journey, it was natural for me that it's remote. I didn't know the office life before so much. I worked in travel agencies but, you know, as a student, so more like this entrepreneurial lifestyle was only accessible to me in remote ways. So that was natural for me and I started to also traveling more for business and then, you know, staying longer in destinations and observing the digital nomad life and well, then again I had a shift last year when I went to Bansko Nomad Fest in Bulgaria and I was a volunteer there at the festival. And well, I stayed there for like one month and then you know, after you talk with hundreds of digital nomads, like there's no way you're not going to travel. So yeah, then then I started like more researching dates and going deeper, also traveling myself. I've been to South America for the winter and North America. So, and through all of this now since last year, I've been like observing, kind of researching, first just like for fun, for my curiosity, what this digital nomadism brings to, first of all, to tourism and to local communities, because that's what I'm mostly interested in. And then also I decided, hey, as I'm interested in this and I had to write a thesis, I said I will do something useful. You know something that I'm already curious about. So mostly, what's driving me now, this curiosity is like how this is changing this way of lifestyle, Remote work, digital nomadism, how it's changing local communities and how we travel, how we interact with local communities. That's really fascinating. Long version of it.

Speaker 1: 9:21

No, but that's the kind of answer that really helps me understand the role of community and mentorship in your life that led you to approach digital. There's a lot of digital nomad content and not so much deep research, but lots of information. That's very much from the perspective of the nomad traveler, whereas you've really clearly deeply considered the destination and the impact of this new kind of traveler. And obviously this traveler existed before COVID but has exploded and we started to have events like Bansko, where suddenly these communities are connecting in the real space as well and it's really exciting. But not everybody listening to this would define themselves as a digital nomad and in fact I don't define myself as a digital nomad. I'm a really slow man who often spends most of my time in one place, even though I love to travel to events and conferences and different places for work and for pleasure or some mixture of the two. One of the things I thought was really interesting in your research was attempt to create some kind of typology, because we use the word nomad a lot and when I hear myself around that word I think, well, that's not really me. I'm some kind of imposter here. I'm not a nomad, I love my home. So can you tell us a bit about your definitions that you used in your research, your categorization of nomadism?

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, that was a very interesting thing to dive into because it was clear immediately, like you said now, that I mean who is actually a digital nomad, like it's hard to define in one way, and maybe before COVID it was kind of, you know, more straightforward, because a stereotypical nomad was a freelancer, you know, working from a cheaper destination somewhere online, you know, can travel all the time, doesn't have a home fixed home, let's say, and you know it's highly mobile. And now, because of COVID and all of this remote work, things have changed and we have a lot of different variations and we still use the word digital nomad because it's maybe easiest but not appropriate to define everyone. So that's why I think now this research that is happening in the digital nomad field is really important and there are a couple of like really, let's say, you know, important definitions that I considered in my thesis and also I see in other research, and I think the most interesting one for me was from researcher Reichenberger, which defined it based on defined digital nomadism or more like the location independent lifestyle on four levels, where the level zero is kind of the one that you just obtain, the location independent lifestyle. So this is through remote work, obviously, but this is just the first requirement. Let's say the first level zero. And then level one is the one who has the location independent lifestyle but still chooses to stay at home, or maybe does you know some short, maybe travels, but mostly, you know, works from home. And then the level two is more interesting, and it's a thing also based on my research from the response I got that this is the most common one. Level two with a nomads or like location independent people who have a home base, like me in Slovenia or you in Spain, and then travels, you know, occasionally for longer periods of time than a typical holiday, so it has to be longer than a holiday but still returns to this home base. And Now, okay, we can argue, like what is this like amount of time that you have to be away from home? Another academic researcher on in the field Defined as three months, that this is the period that you need to be away from home, which you know, okay, we can argue, is two or three months. What is now considered then? Then you're a digital nomad.

Speaker 1: 13:16

So that I'm not level three Two.

Speaker 2: 13:22

Yeah, the level three actually is the one that I mentioned before, like maybe the most stereotypical one, the one that maximizes this location, independence and just travels full-time and doesn't have a home base. Oh, these are kind of the scales, and I think this helps a lot Because we I think a lot of us can like put ourselves in one of these scales. It's kind of a good, good way to also introduce people to what is a digital nomad, because, as you know, people are not Polish or what. What is it? Is it just this maximization of the lifestyle, or it can be also something different?

Speaker 1: 14:01

Yeah, no, that's great. It's useful for people to be able to see where they fit. Look at the options either side. Do I want to go this way or that way? Where would I be comfortable with my next move? So I think that's fascinating. Also, in your research, you introduced a taxonomy of values and motivations for digital nomads, and so I'd love to discuss that a bit more and how that impacts on, maybe, where you move on those levels as well.

Speaker 2: 14:26

Yeah, this was also very interesting to me, like, I think it's also important to consider, like, what are the motivations for living this lifestyle? Because that then depends on your how you act as this type of traveler, which is then important for, let's say, tourism destinations or whoever is, you know, catering to digital nomads, or also employers, you know, to know what is your motivation to To travel like this. I was really like referring to Schlagwine study. It's also another academic that, like, put three different levels or different motivations in terms of, yeah, call them order of work. So there's three inspirational, civic and market order of work and, basically, if we go to, the inspirational one is maybe again the one that is the most stereotypical one. Or, let's say, you know more, for I think very common with digital nomads Is those who, like, really want to like work on their personal development. So it's like travel of personal development, like growing as a person, like learning languages, getting immersed in the cultures. This is, of course, not just for digital nomads, but also, like for backpackers. So, you know, it's very common that you travel to find yourself, it's Expression. So I think this could, could fit in this one. And Then it's the civic order of work, which is more in inclined to community, like finding like-minded people. I would say these types of Travelers are more inclined to stay in, like co-living, visit these kinds of events, like we mentioned, bansko or other, like conferences, to really connect with other travelers and also with locals. So basically, it's about shared experiences and Visiting new places and meeting new people, which is also interesting in terms of digital nomads, because, yeah, we know that always you look for a digital nomad community. I think this is also really common. And then the the last one is the market order of work, which is more economically based, and it's basically we can say that those who fit in this category are pursuing, like, the Maximization of the lifestyle, but by choosing, by using this, you know, location independence and choosing where to live To, for your dollar or euro to go further. So, yeah, so, choosing destinations, like you know, cheaper destinations, maybe, you know, struggling economies, like now Argentina, and this is very, very common as well. It's a common term as well, used here Geo arbitrage, which a lot of digital nomads are using, you know, to to, yeah, just be able to afford Better things for less money, let's say to live a more comfortable life with. Because your this is actually a, maybe one of the biggest privileges of our Time now to like work remotely and choose where you're gonna Live, based on, yeah, based on that, you know. So it's a kind of an interesting topic to To follow.

Speaker 1: 17:41

Definitely so. Did your research indicate that people tend to have be somewhere on a spectrum, then, of all three of those motivations To different extents?

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yeah, it was mostly like the motive. When I asked about the motivations for living this lifestyle, it was basically all of those were answered kind of in a Similar level and I think you cannot like, I think you are never just like one, especially with digital romance, the ones you know, I know, you know there we can Put ourselves in all of these three categories as well. So it's not only one motivation that drives you for this lifestyle. Usually there's Much, much more to it, and it was the same in my research. I could not say, hey, this is the main motivation For for living the lifestyle.

Speaker 1: 18:31

Yeah. So once you get to that level zero, that you've separated your work from a location, then you can see where those three factors Take you, whether it's just to work in a co-working in your local village or Whether it's going to take you around the world so you can leverage some geo arbitrage in another country or take up a digital nomad visa. Then we get into the. Is it three months or six months or whatever? What makes a digital nomad on paper? Yeah, and does that satisfy your inspirational needs along the way? We'll get there in the end. The regulation will catch up, I guess.

Speaker 2: 19:09

Yeah, I think so too. That's why we need to talk about these definitions and to, I think also I mean, you know, in terms of visa that we need to first understand, like, who is this remote worker digital? Like to be able to design a proper visa and paperwork and everything. This is, I think, the biggest struggle right now in the administrative part of digital nomadism.

Speaker 1: 19:30

Absolutely yes, and it's. It's interesting to see how much investment and how much prominence is going into these solutions the compliance side, the visas, and as the regulation tries to catch up with the technology and with the humanity that everybody is out of lockdown and on the road, and somehow we have to make the employment law catch up and the tax and everything else. It's always lagging behind. But what we need for that is primary research such as you have conducted. This will all help the policymakers hopefully develop frameworks that let us choose the way we want to live. And how much did your research reflect on the way that how we live is changing and how digital nomads are managing their day to day, the work life balance, the balance of being a traveler, being a tourist, versus being a professional or an entrepreneur? How are people handling that? Is that changing?

Speaker 2: 20:30

Yeah, so I didn't focus explicitly on that, but we can discuss it, of course. Even from your own experience yeah, from my own. Well, I think it's changing for me, like it was kind of normal as OK, it's an entrepreneurial way, it's a remote way of working, so it was kind of natural to go into it. And it's interesting then to observe some like generations who have not previously worked remotely and then had to adjust, and so it's a completely different kind of mindset as you go into it and I think my personal opinion is that this could change for the better. Of course there are challenges because to get used to working remotely and to be behind the screen home with no colleagues to talk to or discipline, it could also affect I mean it is affecting our work life balance and our emotional struggles and burnouts as well. So I think now what could be needed is like what you're doing here, educating about remote work and how it's done, like how people are doing it, what is beneficial, what is not, how can you maybe more optimize your remote lifestyle through different motivations that you have? So I would say it's upside down how it's reshaping the future of work life balance. But once we grasp it and have these techniques how to work remotely and how to also be able to travel and the same time work, that we can have a better work life balance than we did before.

Speaker 1: 22:16

I sometimes think a lot of the content around digital nomadism is so aspirational that it's all about the beautiful beaches and the landscapes and the experiences and we don't see enough of people working in order to actually pay for that and achieve that. And I don't know, sometimes I get frustrated. It's not just the stock photography, it's the very image, led blogs and everything else. That's very much about the beaches and the palm trees and the beautiful people and the beautiful landscapes. Do we need more emphasis on the work to really make this real for people?

Speaker 2: 22:54

Yeah, I would 100% agree on that, because once you start traveling and working, it's a totally different picture than what you see on TikTok and Instagram, especially if you have to work like eight hours, ten hours a day. So it's like the balance or the discipline that you need to have in that sense is huge. So I think it's one of the biggest challenges. And yeah, I don't see, now that you mentioned a lot of Like, you see influencers saying, oh, I live the digital nomad life, how I live, but you don't see anyone saying, hey, how I managed to work like 10 hours a day but still live the digital nomad life and, for the weekends, still enjoy and see the sights and the destination. So I'm completely agree that we need more talking about this, like how to actually consider our work-life balance, because that was a big challenge for me, like when I came to South America and then you're suddenly overwhelmed by everything and it's the first time and everything, and then the language. You know, it's just all of these like barriers and finding the community. It's just like so many things that so there are like people or services that help you, like the digital nomad toolkits and everything. There exist services for that, but I don't think there's enough of that yet. So that's definitely a niche, a need for future digital nomads.

Speaker 1: 24:30

Yeah, we need to find better ways of talking realistically about the work, I think, and not just trying to sell the inspiration and the dream of the destination. But it feels like there's too much emphasis on that at the moment and not enough talking about the realities of if you're doing, say, a customer service type job or something fairly low hourly paid, then you've got to put long hours in if you want to support that travel lifestyle and you might have to arrive at a new destination and just get your head down rather than go party. And maybe there's too much content from the people who are at it's all about passive income and buy my course and you can make money while you sleep or while you travel the world and so on. So, yeah, let's get real and talk about work-life balance, because the people who do make it work on the road and people like yourself, if you've managed to study and create knowledge, are some of the most disciplined and effective and productive workers I've ever known because they can work. And people say, oh, people aren't as productive working from home. Well, what about working in a new country or an airport? If you can work there, you have the most amazing self-discipline. I know that I'm much more productive at home than anywhere else, and I know that I'm really productive if I'm about to go on a trip because I feel I must get things done and cleared away so I can have that time to not have to concentrate on that when I'm travelling. So, yeah, I think that's an important part of the puzzle. We'll have to have to do some more research on that. So let's talk about the future of work then, in digital nomadism. How do you see this movement growing and how will it impact the global economy and the way that organisations and enterprises work in the future?

Speaker 2: 26:16

Yeah, well, now it's a again, like we said, a completely different shift, because we have also not just freelancers working remotely and traveling, but also companies are allowing their employees to also travel, so there is a big also trend in that. So that again brings new challenges of, let's say, management and company leadership, which I think is going to be inevitable to. There are already countries, as you know, that give you the right basically to say, hey, I can work remotely and I can work from anywhere. So I think this is just going to get like more mainstream as it is now, when you know, first, the progressive countries take over than other countries, like always. But I think it's inevitable that we will have this shift. And then, how is this changing the work life balance? Well, it again opens up new possibilities and new opportunities, new dangers as well, new challenges. And I don't know just for one example, the infrastructure. So the co-workings, the co-living, everything will have to be more catered because we will have more and more remote workers. So the infrastructure is going to have to change from less like company offices to more common offices. So we see this changing the global economy already, especially in progressive countries and those who already have digital nomads, like I have to say in Slovenia, for example, who we don't have digital nomads that much. We still don't yet have as many co-workings, and you see, in countries that they are receiving digital nomads, you can see the rise in this or not just digital nomads, but also locals who work remotely. Maybe this is a bigger shift and then countries will react when more and more companies will allow the locals to work remotely, which is always the case. The destination first needs to cater to the locals, then the visitors come in. It has to be in this way. Then it's again another thing that is mixing, and we're seeing a mix of working leisure, which is also a blurred line that comes now, because if you don't have a fixed schedule, you can work anytime, which is already common in most tech positions and in marketing. And this again brings totally new concept of when we have free time, what we do in our free time, which is actually how we engage in also travel and travel related services, let's say. I don't want to say just holiday, because it's not a holiday, because you also work at the same time. So it brings up new perspective of what is leisure, what is tourism, what is travel, and that's really fascinating to me.

Speaker 1: 29:20

Yeah, we need a whole new vocabulary, don't we? To try and encompass this, because we're not tourists, we're not travelers in that sort of gapier, find yourself, maybe staying longer. I've heard the awful word leisure used to describe that business of leisure. As a writer, that just makes me cringe because it's such a terrible word, but I haven't come across something that describes business and leisure in a better way. I'm not saying that it's a location I'm seeing catching on, but that's being trademarked in some circumstances, so I don't know what we're going to call it in the end, but we just have this completely blended work life, travel spectrum to enjoy, I guess. So that's pretty exciting. Tell me about what you're excited about for the future. What's the most interesting thing coming up for you? Now? Bansko is past. You didn't go for that one. You've just had your event in Slovenia. What's coming up next?

Speaker 2: 30:21

Well, we just, yeah, like you said, we finished an event in Slovenia. It was kind of a retreat, we called it a living learning lab and it was the first prototype of events or co-living experiences that we want to organize more, not just in Slovenia, also abroad. And this was actually kind of a breakthrough for our team because we saw now what is possible with remote work, with digital nomadism, how this can affect really small and sensitive communities, because the event was organized in a very, very small village of maybe 200 people in Slovenia. It's a very small village on the border with Italy and it re-invited a couple of digital nomads and local youth, so mostly students from our university and abroad. We had a participant from India coming in for the event, which was very interesting, and so the premise of the event was to see how we can, like, with this long term stays and with, especially with digital nomads, remote workers, how we can impact communities and make more meaningful interactions between these visitors and the locals.

Speaker 1: 31:41

So what did the locals think of these strange nomads?

Speaker 2: 31:46

Yeah, it was very interesting interactions Because we have to understand that these locals they have their own jobs. Usually they don't work remotely. They are either maybe in agriculture or wine business or accommodation business. So, okay, some are used to travelers because it's also becoming a touristic destination slowly, but mostly it was a very interesting experience but very positive one. We had really positive interactions between foreigners and the locals, so this was really interesting to see. So we had, for example, we had a kind of experience with a local hunter so they could go and observe animals in the night, and well, it was, let's say, totally different because the girl I mentioned from India, she went first time in auto for this kind of experience, and also others from, you know, all over the world. They do not necessarily go into such a, you know, touristic because it's not a touristic experience, it's actually a very local experience. Yeah, you only get like if you know the person.

Speaker 1: 32:56

Yes, you know, find that on a package holiday no.

Speaker 2: 33:01

So these interactions were the goal of what we wanted to do, like to keep it Really what the locals are already doing and hey, let's bring a couple of not too much visitors to observe this lifestyle and also, vice versa, for the Locals to observe what they do and how, because the remote work is as well, you know, not as spread it in the digital Ahmed World or the field. So this, this dynamic, is what we wanted to create and, in terms of the first prototype, it was like we were really satisfied with the, with the result, and, yeah, now for the future, we really want to like, create more and more long term, because this was an experiment for one week, but we want to create more like one month, two months, residencies like this and maybe in the future to build I can network of these types of locations, small villages, rural areas, which you could move from. You know, stay one month in Slovenia and a village, then go to Austria, then Croatia and Still have the same experience by immersing yourself in the Local environment and being with locals and just you sharing your lifestyle and they sharing their lifestyle. So these types of exchanges is Kind of our goal. Now, what we want to create, Sounds wonderful.

Speaker 1: 34:22

I love the way that you're fusing the, the technology and the advances that let us work like this from wherever, with these incredibly Localized traditions and ways of living and ways of being, and connecting those two sounds like a wonderful project to be involved with. If people want to learn more, where's the best way for them to follow your work?

Speaker 2: 34:44

Rudy, you've got a substack, I believe yeah, I'm writing weekly, every Sunday, I write a blog, a newsletter about yeah, about this. What we were talking about now I'm focusing on this, on the impacts of this digital oh my Dism and remote work on specifically on destinations, on tourism to the substack is called Rudy's travel journal. I also have a website to rudy medvetcom and I'm on Twitter, instagram, linkedin, so, whatever you, it's easier to connect.

Speaker 1: 35:16

Brilliant. That's where we'll put all those links in the show notes, but you've spelled them out for anybody who's just listening. I want to dash over there now, stop driving or whatever you're doing, but then go and sign up for Rudy's newsletter. Rudy, thank you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's given me lots to think about, about the future of travel and work and how those things are gonna blend beautifully. I really appreciate you. Being part of the future is freelance.

Speaker 2: 35:41

Yeah, thanks might was really a pleasure to talk about these topics, which I hope people will find interesting.

Speaker 1: 35:48

Thank you for listening to the future is freelance podcast. We appreciate your time and attention in a busy world and your busy freelance life. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a fellow freelancer and help us grow this movement of independent entrepreneurs. If you rate and review the future is freelance in whichever app you're listening to right now, it really helps spread the word and that means we can reach more people who need to hear this message. Together we can change the world and make sure the future is freelance. Don't forget you can check out all our back episodes from other seasons and learn more over at future is freelance dot xyz. We're so grateful, not only for our listeners, but for the contributions of our wonderful guests and for the production and marketing assistance of coffee like media. This is Maya middle miss, wishing you freelance freedom and happiness until our next show.